WEBVTT 00:00:04.920 --> 00:00:06.400 My name is Svjetlana Nedimović 00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:09.400 I'm based in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina. 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:13.360 Currently on, visiting fellowship in the Centre for Advanced Studies 00:00:13.360 --> 00:00:16.360 Futures of Sustainability in Hamburg. 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:19.760 And I have been involved over the last, 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.760 let's say, 10 to 15 years in, 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:25.880 lots of urban struggles in Sarajevo, 00:00:25.880 --> 00:00:29.760 but also some social justice struggles, like the mass mobilizations 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:33.040 that Bosnia-Herzegovina had, back in 2014. 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.160 And, protests and plans that we organized back then. 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:41.040 And then since then, lots of social, 00:00:41.040 --> 00:00:43.666 I would call them social environmental struggles. 00:00:43.726 --> 00:00:47.146 And currently I'm working as an organizer, 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:51.120 for a relatively new platform called ZBOR, 00:00:51.120 --> 00:00:55.656 which is: Collective or united Balkans, resistance and labor. 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:02.640 We've been around for nearly a year, two years now. 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:08.280 But we are working on kind of contesting the whole paradigm of green transition. 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.120 ZBOR started around 2023. 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:16.760 And it's an interesting, 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.960 it's also an interesting term because it is an acronym, 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:24.960 but also "zbor" in our languages, in the languages of the Yugoslav alliance, 00:01:25.800 --> 00:01:30.933 was a very particular, traditional form of decision making, 00:01:30.966 --> 00:01:33.560 or an assembly or a gathering in villages, 00:01:33.880 --> 00:01:38.126 but also it's specifically linked to the legacies 00:01:38.240 --> 00:01:41.106 of the Second World War anti-fascist resistance 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:43.470 and also socialist Yugoslavia, 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:45.620 and the self- management practices, 00:01:45.660 --> 00:01:49.913 because it was kind of the fundamental unit of direct democracy. 00:01:50.386 --> 00:01:53.619 I like to say that it was democracy where it mattered, 00:01:53.679 --> 00:01:55.720 where you live and where you work. 00:01:56.160 --> 00:01:59.160 And, in a specific way, 00:01:59.160 --> 00:02:03.276 zbor is always a place of... it cannot be controlled. 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:05.760 You never know what can come up. 00:02:05.836 --> 00:02:07.800 You cannot direct it, you cannot engineer it. 00:02:07.800 --> 00:02:11.226 You can have a script before that, but it's basically 00:02:11.266 --> 00:02:15.246 people sitting down and talking about what matters to them 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:16.480 and coming to decisions. 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:18.700 That was all 00:02:19.440 --> 00:02:21.400 devastated and destroyed 00:02:21.440 --> 00:02:23.720 in the Democratic transition of the 1990s. 00:02:23.826 --> 00:02:26.519 When we entered the electoral democracy, 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:28.660 where what people have to say doesn't matter, 00:02:28.706 --> 00:02:31.706 except every four years and in a standard format. 00:02:32.040 --> 00:02:35.834 So we want to also revive that practice 00:02:35.859 --> 00:02:39.280 of collective decision making or collective acting. 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:42.360 And, funnily enough, it kind of coincides with 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:44.826 what is happening in Serbia now 00:02:44.887 --> 00:02:48.993 and has been happening over the last 6, 7 months 00:02:49.160 --> 00:02:52.560 with student mobilizations, because they're also organizing, 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:54.080 as they say, plenums, 00:02:54.219 --> 00:02:57.906 and they invited people to join them by organizing themselves in sbors. 00:02:58.440 --> 00:03:00.840 So what we are doing, 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:03.080 at the moment, we are working, like, 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:07.046 last year we met in eastern Serbia in Homolje mountains. 00:03:07.440 --> 00:03:11.640 To talk a bit about the problems that the region is facing, 00:03:11.700 --> 00:03:16.280 and also to support the local rassroots group "Rangers of Eastern Serbia", 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:19.560 that is fighting the new mines, corporate mines, 00:03:19.920 --> 00:03:24.720 that would be opening in this region, which is full of fresh water. 00:03:24.867 --> 00:03:28.506 And it should have been part of the national park there. 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.760 This year, we are doing something different. 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.040 We are a bit nomadic. 00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:40.680 We traveled, or we shall travel to Bosnia and Herzegovina and we are meeting 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:44.840 at a coal mining community near Sarajevo. 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:50.973 It's called Breza, a vibrant town that is kind of living around 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.680 and from its coal mine, because we think that 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:58.240 in all this talk of Green Transition, there are very important things left out, 00:03:58.323 --> 00:04:02.313 like the workers of the, what they are saying now, "old" industries. 00:04:02.600 --> 00:04:06.636 We are gathering there in September from the 12th to the 14th, 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.400 to talk the transition to contest the transition, 00:04:13.833 --> 00:04:17.886 and under the slogan "For miners land and water" 00:04:21.512 --> 00:04:27.281 The 2021 protest of the coal miners 00:04:27.599 --> 00:04:30.686 That was several days 00:04:30.746 --> 00:04:35.086 of mass mobilizations of workers and their communities 00:04:35.306 --> 00:04:38.840 under the motto: "We ain't giving you no coal!" 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:42.280 And, you know, it's a message like: 00:04:42.280 --> 00:04:45.840 what would happen if they were really to stop delivering coal? 00:04:45.913 --> 00:04:50.840 Because Bosnian energy sector is dependent still very much on coal power plants. 00:04:51.320 --> 00:04:53.300 So what is going to happen with these people 00:04:53.440 --> 00:04:56.840 and these communities, where is their place? 00:04:56.926 --> 00:05:00.760 Why is it that we talk in this whole talk of green transition, which is coming 00:05:00.760 --> 00:05:04.920 kind of imposed from the expert circles in technocratic and bureaucratic circles, 00:05:05.693 --> 00:05:08.693 what is going to happen to organized labor? 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:13.080 Why is it that we talk like that, the term that is used in our language 00:05:13.080 --> 00:05:17.160 for what will happen with the workers, or what the plans are, 00:05:17.233 --> 00:05:22.153 is the same term that you use for wound care or the care for the deceased. 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:26.513 These workers built our country and built these communities. 00:05:28.806 --> 00:05:34.586 Alliances 00:05:34.760 --> 00:05:38.016 When I saw the power of organized labor is something that we 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:41.760 very much lost in Bosnia-Herzegovina because it was destroyed 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:42.920 through the transition. 00:05:43.020 --> 00:05:45.200 We're kind of versed in transitions. 00:05:45.200 --> 00:05:47.280 We saw the last one of 1990s. 00:05:47.380 --> 00:05:49.673 It didn't bring anything good to us. 00:05:49.760 --> 00:05:54.640 It brought impoverishment, or further impoverishment on communities. 00:05:54.640 --> 00:05:56.800 It brought about depopulation 00:05:56.860 --> 00:06:00.240 through practically mass exodus of not just young people, 00:06:00.326 --> 00:06:03.960 but kind of middle age people being uprooted from their communities. 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.433 It brought precarious work. 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:09.280 It brought relaxing of, 00:06:09.280 --> 00:06:12.280 further relaxation of labor legislation. 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:17.280 So when I saw the miners on the street and they saw the power that they had, 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:21.560 The first thing that occurs to you is: This is also going to go away. 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.693 So it's not just the cultural element and the social welfare element 00:06:25.773 --> 00:06:28.873 of what they call "coal phaseout". 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.840 But it's also the political element because these organization, 00:06:32.880 --> 00:06:35.760 you know, organized labor is not just an economic factor. 00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:37.160 It's a political factor. 00:06:37.253 --> 00:06:42.093 They could stop the capitalist machine in a way that none of us could! 00:06:42.766 --> 00:06:44.146 So I think, 00:06:44.206 --> 00:06:46.999 there is ground there for building alliances. 00:06:47.080 --> 00:06:50.280 And people are saying that perhaps we're experimenting with new alliances, 00:06:50.280 --> 00:06:52.440 I think that is nonsensical. 00:06:52.440 --> 00:06:54.790 These are old alliances. 00:06:54.850 --> 00:06:56.800 The region, 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:00.880 when we were camping in Serbia last year, we heard a lot about, 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:05.480 how people were inspired by something that happened in 1930s, 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.880 in that sort of a broader region of eastern Serbia. 00:07:08.880 --> 00:07:15.000 And that was the, uprising of the miners and farmers together. 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.320 Because they understood they were fighting basically 00:07:18.320 --> 00:07:19.476 for the same thing. 00:07:19.547 --> 00:07:23.867 They were fighting for work conditions and against environmental destruction. 00:07:25.410 --> 00:07:29.280 So our understanding is that if there is no alliance, 00:07:29.280 --> 00:07:33.226 if there is an antagonism between land defenders, 00:07:33.273 --> 00:07:35.926 that are falsely, perhaps, called environmentalists, 00:07:36.060 --> 00:07:39.433 and the workers, that's because it was engineered. 00:07:39.520 --> 00:07:41.560 This is not a natural antagonism. 00:07:41.620 --> 00:07:44.420 This was engineered, so that we wouldn't see 00:07:44.466 --> 00:07:48.560 the common systemic cause of our problems. 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:52.640 And that is profit making of our labor and of our resources. 00:07:52.960 --> 00:07:56.466 So we are kind of moving along the lines of: 00:07:56.506 --> 00:07:59.353 "We are against exploitation of people and nature." 00:07:59.406 --> 00:08:01.666 And this has to go together. 00:08:01.719 --> 00:08:06.552 And this alliances, rebuilding of alliances 00:08:06.760 --> 00:08:10.680 is something that we are hoping for in Breza, because we want to bring, 00:08:11.080 --> 00:08:15.520 people who are trying to defend their land and their water 00:08:15.640 --> 00:08:18.960 and their forests, because that's the source of their subsistence, 00:08:19.736 --> 00:08:23.680 and people who are fighting for the dignity of their work 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:27.760 and for the recognition of this and material recognition, I have to say. 00:08:27.887 --> 00:08:33.067 Symbolic recognition, you know... we've had enough of PR campaigns. 00:08:37.140 --> 00:08:45.206 Is there a debate about conversion in the mining sector in Bosnia and Herzegovina? 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:46.560 What we are seeing, 00:08:46.560 --> 00:08:49.840 I cannot really see what is happening internally. 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:54.800 We can see from the outside. There is no proper debate in the public. 00:08:55.133 --> 00:08:58.240 Everything is happening in very narrow circles 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.280 of foreign experts and domestic experts, 00:09:01.280 --> 00:09:03.560 government, 00:09:03.560 --> 00:09:07.959 EU bureaucracy consultants, the army of consultants, 00:09:08.119 --> 00:09:09.280 and obviously, 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:14.000 some parts of the non-governmental sector, like non-governmental organizations. 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:17.400 And, what we are seeing is that it's very harmful. 00:09:17.400 --> 00:09:21.800 I mean, it's harmful also for the open debate of how we are relating 00:09:21.800 --> 00:09:23.060 to nature and environment, 00:09:23.133 --> 00:09:26.461 because it's all pushed into technological solutions. 00:09:27.413 --> 00:09:31.653 An there are plans and programs we basically know very little about. 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:34.800 Just recently the World Bank has been running around 00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:38.280 with the latest program for the coal mines restructuring. 00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:42.040 I do have to say that anyone who knows what the World Bank 00:09:42.040 --> 00:09:47.160 has been up to over the decades, when you hear the word restructuring 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.720 it's kind of panic. 00:09:50.386 --> 00:09:52.380 And so this is precisely 00:09:52.433 --> 00:09:55.440 what we are thinking like what is actually going on? 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.600 What does this restructuring bring? 00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:59.520 Who is supposed to decide on this, 00:09:59.520 --> 00:10:01.240 if people are not involved? 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.840 It's the workers and it's their communities, 00:10:04.887 --> 00:10:06.506 because, this is very important, 00:10:06.546 --> 00:10:10.320 we are talking about the workplaces is that built entire communities. 00:10:10.362 --> 00:10:12.968 Like in Breza we shall be meeting 00:10:12.993 --> 00:10:15.120 by the swimming pool that was built by the coal mine 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:18.280 for the community and for the city of Sarajevo. 00:10:18.386 --> 00:10:21.880 The first Olympic swimming pool, outdoor pool, 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.440 which is devastated, obviously, through the latest 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:28.360 round of transition. 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:32.706 So we don't see any debate going on, 00:10:32.800 --> 00:10:34.613 out in the open. 00:10:34.680 --> 00:10:38.473 We just see some programs and strategies done in these narrow circles, 00:10:38.546 --> 00:10:41.720 and I think they are very harmful, 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.000 also in the fact that it's not... there is a lot of focus on coal. 00:10:46.400 --> 00:10:48.160 We could there bring up the issues 00:10:48.160 --> 00:10:51.160 of historical climate injustice. 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.360 I mean, the historical contribution 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:58.880 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to CO2 emissions 00:10:58.920 --> 00:11:04.813 is like .06, 0.06. 00:11:05.800 --> 00:11:07.800 There is also the problem, 00:11:07.800 --> 00:11:11.199 that no one is even raising the issue of construction, 00:11:11.266 --> 00:11:15.086 which is mainly done for real estate market speculation 00:11:15.186 --> 00:11:18.586 and emissions in that industry are huge. 00:11:18.626 --> 00:11:20.320 We didn't start from that, 00:11:20.380 --> 00:11:24.760 and we didn't start from the end of flying busness. 00:11:24.853 --> 00:11:30.840 in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the region, 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:32.880 we started 00:11:32.880 --> 00:11:36.880 from something that constitutes the basis of energy sector 00:11:36.880 --> 00:11:39.920 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, public energy sector. 00:11:40.800 --> 00:11:43.800 We also don't see any debate on the renewables, which are, 00:11:44.040 --> 00:11:47.520 constitute the creeping privatization of the energy sector, 00:11:47.760 --> 00:11:51.713 because there's a lots of calls and lots of offers 00:11:51.766 --> 00:11:54.000 made to the private sector to invest. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:55.200 And this is what we, 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.620 what land defenders are fighting against, 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:00.333 because what they see is the private businesses, 00:12:00.413 --> 00:12:04.513 companies moving in and taking vast pieces of land, 00:12:04.746 --> 00:12:08.760 absorbing also something that used to be publicly owned, 00:12:10.680 --> 00:12:14.680 it used to be social ownership, social property, basically. 00:12:14.920 --> 00:12:18.960 Societal, you could say, ...moving in and absorbing it 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.200 for their private projects, which will render us in this situation 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:25.560 like Greece is paying enormous prices of energy 00:12:25.560 --> 00:12:30.920 because it's you're basically renouncing any kind of energy sovereignty. 00:12:30.920 --> 00:12:32.280 They will offer it on the market. 00:12:32.280 --> 00:12:34.520 If we can't pay, what is that going to mean? 00:12:34.520 --> 00:12:38.280 And if they close our coal power plants without any kind of, 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:42.053 not not a phase out, it's going to be 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:43.986 it could be very abrupt. 00:12:46.766 --> 00:12:51.666 What is unnecessary and harmful about the mining sector? 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:53.306 Well, the current mining sector, 00:12:53.340 --> 00:12:56.160 there are several layers to it, actually. 00:12:57.160 --> 00:12:58.840 We can talk public coal mines. 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.240 We can also talk private coal mines, because the public coal mines 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:05.600 are constantly addressed as a problem and a burden 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.960 that they are not productive enough that they are running losses, deficits, 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:10.920 etc., etc.. 00:13:10.920 --> 00:13:14.560 At the same time, one of our state owned, 00:13:15.880 --> 00:13:18.440 electric power supply companies 00:13:18.520 --> 00:13:21.360 is buying coal from private coal mines, 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.360 which are being opened as we speak, 00:13:24.400 --> 00:13:29.240 with very, very shady, through very shady procedures, 00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:32.840 of environmental impact assessment and, 00:13:33.640 --> 00:13:37.120 you know, I recently heard of a coal mine, 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:40.120 a private coal mine, that got closed down before it actually, 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.520 collected, gathered all the paperwork necessary for it to run. 00:13:44.520 --> 00:13:46.920 So it finished exploitation 00:13:46.920 --> 00:13:50.353 by the time it got all the paperwork sorted. 00:13:50.447 --> 00:13:51.536 Profit is being made. 00:13:51.560 --> 00:13:54.680 And the power companies, from some of them buying coal, 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:57.360 at the price, 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.040 double the price that is being paid to the public mines. 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.880 So they're literally being strategically run 00:14:05.280 --> 00:14:08.280 to ruin, to bankruptcy. 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.560 But then we have also new mines, corporate mines being opened 00:14:13.800 --> 00:14:16.960 hunting for, strategic minerals, 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.000 and we see, like in the region, obviously Serbia is kind of in the spotlight 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.920 because of lithium in Rio Tinto, but they have lots of smaller 00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:29.440 players already inside, in Bosnia-Herzegovina. 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:31.560 Also it's 00:14:31.560 --> 00:14:34.120 apparently recently 00:14:34.333 --> 00:14:37.233 Adriatic Metals sold to a Canadian. 00:14:37.359 --> 00:14:38.520 This is what we heard. 00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:41.920 Take it with some reservations, because it's always, 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.400 we can never get enough information on this, obviously, 00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:48.160 - for all the talk of transparency, that was 00:14:48.160 --> 00:14:53.080 fed down our throats by European Union through the enlargement process, 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.280 like the most interesting non-transparent thing 00:14:56.280 --> 00:14:59.280 is how these businesses are operating. 00:14:59.735 --> 00:15:03.135 And so the mine in Vareš 00:15:03.160 --> 00:15:08.040 which is a neighboring community to Breza, a workers town, 00:15:09.446 --> 00:15:10.620 the mine got sold 00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:13.713 to a Canadian junior mining company, Dundee, 00:15:13.800 --> 00:15:16.620 which is actually operating and doing surveys, 00:15:16.673 --> 00:15:19.000 where we camped in eastern Serbia last year. 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:23.480 So it's like all these kind of, connections and intersections. 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:28.440 There are companies interested in Lithium or whatever 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:33.280 also, on the Bosnian side of this region. 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.880 So it's like Swiss, 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.640 there is magnesium mining done by 00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:44.859 a German company in Kupres, where there has never been any mining. 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.760 So people are getting concerned. 00:15:47.760 --> 00:15:51.760 Mining communities, coal mining communities, all mines are suffering 00:15:51.853 --> 00:15:55.933 from imminent closure or the threat of closure. 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:00.400 And new mines are coming into the places where there has never been mining, 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:05.080 where people live of different, they have different sources of living, 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:08.159 which they see as immediately threatened by this. 00:16:08.280 --> 00:16:09.710 And the mines? 00:16:09.776 --> 00:16:13.200 For how long are they saying? Where is that going? 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.480 Whatever they are taking out of the ground, 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:20.800 and that is also obscure, - where is it going? 00:16:20.920 --> 00:16:22.920 It's not building our communities. 00:16:23.040 --> 00:16:25.480 It's basically the wages that they pay, 00:16:26.520 --> 00:16:28.920 and that is like what 00:16:29.006 --> 00:16:32.006 we know is that the workers are not unionized, 00:16:32.760 --> 00:16:35.760 that many contracts are actually very... 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:44.040 they are determined, as they say, determined term of employment. 00:16:44.040 --> 00:16:46.680 So it's not anything stable. 00:16:46.760 --> 00:16:49.620 They're also bringing in work force from elsewhere. 00:16:49.699 --> 00:16:51.960 And it's mainly expert workforce. 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:55.280 And the low qualified, low paid jobs 00:16:55.280 --> 00:16:58.280 are for the local communities. 00:16:58.640 --> 00:17:01.360 So what we see is 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.440 very, very low concession fees being paid 00:17:04.760 --> 00:17:08.360 and some public relations work in the sense that they will donate, 00:17:08.360 --> 00:17:11.920 you know, something to the local health center 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.303 or something, you know, build a playground or something like that. 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.240 So it's, you know, 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.160 the mining sector at the moment is kind of looking very strange, 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:26.160 like the public share is being driven to ruin. 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.220 And the private share, and especially international corporate, 00:17:30.293 --> 00:17:32.800 is rising without any, 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:35.440 any more substantive benefit 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:38.200 for for the local communities. 00:17:41.806 --> 00:17:47.573 What would we change about the sector in a post-capitalist society? 00:17:47.815 --> 00:17:49.695 I think that's probably, 00:17:49.823 --> 00:17:53.280 two big a bite for me to chew, as a political organizer. 00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:57.206 But we are hoping that we shall hear about that in Breza. 00:17:57.320 --> 00:18:00.840 This is one of the things we want to hear from people rather than go there 00:18:00.840 --> 00:18:06.080 with the sort of, you know, instant vision of tomorrow's world. 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:09.360 We actually want to hear from people and also want to hear from people 00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:13.120 who were in the sector, in socialist years. 00:18:13.320 --> 00:18:18.640 And we have one of the people who I hope is coming, 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:23.116 he's at the same time a miner and the land defender, 00:18:23.320 --> 00:18:28.436 and he often says: Mining can work on the conditions of socialism. 00:18:28.733 --> 00:18:30.613 And he says this is the only way it can work. 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.160 And I think that pretty much sums it up. 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.640 And he just describes how miners were 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:41.560 building his community once upon a time in socialist years. 00:18:41.693 --> 00:18:45.033 And he's saying, obviously there would need to be 00:18:45.080 --> 00:18:46.853 technological improvements, 00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:49.606 we have different standards now. 00:18:49.933 --> 00:18:53.406 But his very powerful statement is: 00:18:53.586 --> 00:18:55.680 This can work, 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:57.353 but under socialism. 00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:02.640 The message from Serbia, for example, from our comrades and fellows in Serbia 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.800 is: You shall not dig. In Rio Tinto. 00:19:05.800 --> 00:19:08.800 Obviously, the region where they're moving into is a region 00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:12.786 living of different, economic sort of niches. 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.479 There is a great danger to water and the message is very strong: 00:19:16.553 --> 00:19:17.680 "You shall not dig." 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:21.480 And I often joke and say that Bosnia-Herzegovina cannot really say: 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:22.520 "You shall not dig." 00:19:22.520 --> 00:19:24.920 Because we are kind of, you know, from Hunger Games, 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:28.040 the 12th district, there has always been some digging, 00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:31.600 but we need to sit down and see how it is to be done. 00:19:31.646 --> 00:19:33.306 What for? Whom for? 00:19:33.346 --> 00:19:35.960 Who's going to profit and who's going to suffer the consequences? 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:39.946 I don't think that private mining will ever work, 00:19:39.986 --> 00:19:42.080 because it's about profit-making. 00:19:42.206 --> 00:19:45.446 It can never balance the social and environmental costs. 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:50.880 We want to kind of sit down in Breza, and hear from people 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.640 how they see mining, 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.240 what is the meaning of sustainability, socially speaking, 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.440 not just environmentally, because this kind 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.286 of greening of capitalism is clearly not working. 00:20:14.993 --> 00:20:18.520 For different regions, I think it would probably mean different things. 00:20:18.520 --> 00:20:22.640 So I can speak for what we are doing, and our political task at the moment is, 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.640 first of all, to use the opportunity, take the opportunity 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.920 of this rift opened by the "transition" narrative in capitalism, 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:35.680 because it's basically a kind of fundamental admission, 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:40.080 that it's not working, and it's not working in the core. 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.920 So we need to take that opening 00:20:44.040 --> 00:20:46.840 and rebuild our political and economic forces 00:20:46.840 --> 00:20:49.840 on different grounds. 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.880 And we also need to speak up 00:20:54.600 --> 00:20:57.120 at the beginning, against the Green Transition 00:20:57.120 --> 00:21:01.200 that is turning olive green. Because we no longer, 00:21:01.560 --> 00:21:06.486 it's kind of a paradigm shift within less than a decade. 00:21:06.553 --> 00:21:10.760 Three, four years ago, we were hearing about the need to save the planet. 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.880 That's how this green colonialism was being sold. 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:19.440 And 3 or 4 years later, we are listening about geopolitical interests. 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.520 This is a completely, this is a big shift, 00:21:23.520 --> 00:21:27.280 but it's also a great opening because some people are saying: 00:21:27.280 --> 00:21:29.040 "Perhaps we should have been smarter, 00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:33.560 perhaps it was about it all along", about the interests of capital 00:21:34.280 --> 00:21:37.280 and the interests of the elites. 00:21:37.560 --> 00:21:41.800 And I think we need to take this opening and do the, 00:21:42.120 --> 00:21:43.820 you know, the famous quote: 00:21:43.873 --> 00:21:46.329 "What's the most revolutionary thing you can do? 00:21:46.353 --> 00:21:48.273 You can see what is actually going on." 00:21:48.307 --> 00:21:50.976 And you can take that as a starting point. 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.400 We don't need to go into the past 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.400 to dig for inspiration or to dig for reasons. 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.280 It's here, right here in front of us. 00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:05.675 And take this as a step towards rebuilding old alliances 00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:07.520 possibly spreading that 00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:10.960 and trying within different niches some kinds of transformation. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.480 Because it's a transformation that we definitely need. 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:14.760 It's just not, 00:22:14.760 --> 00:22:19.120 in the paradigm of transition is certainly not in the paradigm of Green Transition 00:22:19.120 --> 00:22:22.560 at it's as it is being hammered into us, into our heads 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:24.320 over the last years. 00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:29.640 So, for us, the task is to help organizing of people on the ground, 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:30.726 help uniting our struggles, 00:22:30.773 --> 00:22:33.776 do what we can do through the resources and capacities 00:22:33.800 --> 00:22:36.800 that we have, be it contacts, 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.200 be it a kind of facilitation, 00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:42.120 and letting people know of each other. 00:22:42.120 --> 00:22:45.720 And that they share something that they can fight for. 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:50.760 And that's the most immediate. - And then contesting, 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:54.240 fundamentally contesting the system. 00:22:54.520 --> 00:22:58.760 And because if now people see it, it is so obvious. 00:22:58.760 --> 00:23:02.360 like, so you hear: Digging for something 00:23:02.360 --> 00:23:07.200 you call strategic raw materials or whatever, critical minerals 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.680 to do what with it? To feed the arms industry? 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.800 To feed wars and to kill other people like us on the other side. 00:23:14.800 --> 00:23:16.680 So it's a story, you know, 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:20.480 I often say it frightfully reminds me of 1914. 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:24.853 So let's not make the same mistake that we allow working classes 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:28.680 different segments of working class, to be pitted against each other, 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:33.200 like, for example, land defenders and workers of industries. 00:23:33.760 --> 00:23:37.000 I think it's, at the same time, 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:40.800 I keep hearing the doom and gloom and and I do hear it. 00:23:40.800 --> 00:23:44.920 And you cannot look at the news and you cannot look at the shots from Gaza 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.000 and say, it's not doom and gloom, - it is a catastrophe! 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.363 But you cannot allow yourself to be paralyzed by this. 00:23:55.406 --> 00:24:01.440 How should we get organizeed? 00:24:01.560 --> 00:24:04.659 A great challenge for us at the moment 00:24:04.746 --> 00:24:07.080 is transnational organizing. 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.840 And I have to say that, 00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:13.200 we're still trying to see how you make it 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.560 into something more solid than 00:24:16.560 --> 00:24:20.920 it's been for the last decades, at least, how we experienced it. 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:23.600 How do you root it, materially? 00:24:23.600 --> 00:24:27.486 What can we do? I mean, is it through strikes, 00:24:27.566 --> 00:24:33.120 that prevent loading of arms that are shipped against people in Gaza, 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:37.880 to be used on children and people of Gaza and Palestine in general. 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:40.480 So is it that? 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.520 But there is there's something, if I'm not a worker in the factory, 00:24:44.520 --> 00:24:47.520 in the arms factory, or if I'm not someone 00:24:47.520 --> 00:24:50.520 at the port dock or something, what can I do? 00:24:50.760 --> 00:24:53.200 What can we do to make it material? 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:54.800 Can we do some boycott? 00:24:54.800 --> 00:24:57.160 Can we do, you know, a more substantive boycott? 00:24:57.260 --> 00:25:01.180 I mean, not just in the sense sharing on social media. 00:25:02.040 --> 00:25:06.360 How can we do something together transnationally? 00:25:06.486 --> 00:25:09.720 And to the sort of group where I'm working, 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:13.920 this has been quite a challenge, I have to say, because it's very difficult 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.400 to go against the structures that are pre-established. 00:25:17.840 --> 00:25:22.080 Also to organize outside of the set pattern 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:26.360 of the non-governmental sector, non-governmental organizations 00:25:26.360 --> 00:25:28.200 or the kind of social movements 00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.480 that we have been seeing very kind of loose, very... 00:25:32.280 --> 00:25:36.080 There's something there's a lot to be said for horizontal organizing, 00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:38.840 but I think there's a lot to be improved there, as well. 00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:42.280 We also have to see how we work with spontaneity 00:25:42.280 --> 00:25:44.520 since we don't seem to be prepared. 00:25:44.520 --> 00:25:48.960 I mean, things happen and, they're kind of overtaking and 00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:50.880 and at the moment when they are happening, 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.400 you're not there, if you're not prepared! 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:58.360 So I think these are all these, kind of tasks that need to be done and obviously, 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:01.920 fighting to recover the ground 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.360 that was taken from us from the left by the right wing. 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:10.080 Because in many places I've heard, I've talked with people elsewhere as well. 00:26:10.080 --> 00:26:13.120 And you, the feeling is that the left 00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:18.840 let the right wing move into the field, 00:26:18.973 --> 00:26:21.973 and into the communities to work with people, 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.040 who would, you know, be kind of, 00:26:25.040 --> 00:26:28.680 logically, naturally, people on the left. 00:26:29.040 --> 00:26:31.920 And they're very aggressively taking over. 00:26:32.046 --> 00:26:35.800 And I think we should have learned the lesson of the 20th century. 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:37.600 We're kind of seeing it repeated. 00:26:37.773 --> 00:26:41.293 If the left backs off, if the left is concerned with, 00:26:41.520 --> 00:26:42.800 you know, where do we stand? 00:26:42.800 --> 00:26:45.240 Like the minuscule kind of ideological, 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:48.120 vivisection of the left, 00:26:48.120 --> 00:26:52.440 if we stay there in these debates, I think we're doomed. 00:26:52.760 --> 00:26:57.526 We need to move quickly, swiftly, back to the masses, 00:26:57.573 --> 00:27:00.140 and not invent the agenda. 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:04.200 And I think it was basically a very easy recipe from Lenin: 00:27:04.276 --> 00:27:08.160 Go to the masses and, you know, listen to them what they have to share. 00:27:08.296 --> 00:27:12.000 What they have to say, what their real problems are. 00:27:12.520 --> 00:27:15.400 And we tried on our part 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.920 to go to communities and listen to the voices that are silenced. 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:24.560 And yes, we heard it's the mines, in mining communities. 00:27:24.560 --> 00:27:29.760 It's the land in communities that are being exploited for 00:27:29.906 --> 00:27:30.926 the renewables. 00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:35.240 And it's water in the communities where the new mines are being opened. 00:27:35.280 --> 00:27:38.000 So we're not inventing it. This is what we heard. 00:27:40.426 --> 00:27:45.426 Is there resistance against militarization by the workers? 00:27:45.773 --> 00:27:49.720 In Bosnia and Herzegovina, what I'm seeing is, 00:27:50.520 --> 00:27:53.240 perhaps this does not answer the question 00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:56.640 of militarization directly, but what we are seeing is 00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.680 you know, I'm not a great fan of historical analogies, 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.680 but this one keeps popping up and it's Berlin Congress. 00:28:03.840 --> 00:28:07.800 It's like lots of power is playing on the ground 00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:10.800 of Bosnia-Herzegowina for the resources. 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:15.160 We also have an arms industry, 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:20.173 Bosnia Herzegovina was full of arms industry, 00:28:20.246 --> 00:28:23.426 even in Yugoslav years. 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:26.840 And that is, from what I'm hearing, that's, 00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:29.143 proving to be a very prosperous sector. 00:28:29.280 --> 00:28:34.720 So that also makes you wonder, how do you go about that? 00:28:34.816 --> 00:28:38.400 How do you in a situation where economically it's so difficult, 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.400 how do you go about contesting that as a source of, 00:28:41.760 --> 00:28:44.000 you know, source of income for people? 00:28:44.360 --> 00:28:45.800 In terms of 00:28:45.800 --> 00:28:51.120 militarization in Bosnia Herzegovina, 00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:55.880 what we first saw was, investment of European Union 00:28:56.493 --> 00:28:58.880 in building our police force, 00:28:59.006 --> 00:29:01.733 to organize against protests. 00:29:01.800 --> 00:29:04.920 We actually saw it straight after 2014. 00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:08.040 That's the first step that was taken. 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.840 But Bosnia and Herzegovina doesn't 00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:14.920 basically matter, because there are NATO troops 00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:18.720 guarding the peace in Bosnia Herzegovina. 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.480 We as a sovereign country, 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.560 we are not really considered sovereign. 00:29:25.560 --> 00:29:29.320 So I don't think we, they play all sorts of games with Serbia, 00:29:29.473 --> 00:29:32.520 with Bosnia and Herzegovina, I think we are not even seen. 00:29:32.566 --> 00:29:35.480 We don't even see ourselves as a factor. 00:29:40.773 --> 00:29:45.540 Where there struggles in the region recently? 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.480 The whole idea of ZBOR in Russia 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.200 is also to bring back to people, to inspire in them 00:29:52.800 --> 00:30:00.513 the will to fight for their communities and their work, 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:06.000 and the fruits of their labor, because we have seen dwindling of resistance, 00:30:06.520 --> 00:30:10.480 in the country for various reasons. It has been taking so long, 00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.480 and young people are leaving and people are really, 00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.920 they say: "People don't see hope." 00:30:16.986 --> 00:30:21.280 You will not see hope, obviously, but they don't see the avenues of action, 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.280 and it seems that we shall have to move 00:30:24.379 --> 00:30:27.419 off the beaten paths for that, for sure. 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:28.920 So it's kind of... 00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.600 what we are trying to do in Breza as well through this assembly, 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:35.040 we saw this 00:30:35.040 --> 00:30:38.040 feeling that there is something about collective action. 00:30:38.320 --> 00:30:41.800 And even if you don't have institutional channels to absorb this, 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.810 that you can feed this into 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.040 the public pressure rises! If you go out public 00:30:49.040 --> 00:30:51.840 and show to people that people can work together 00:30:51.926 --> 00:30:54.926 and people can do things together for themselves. 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:59.720 You are also exposing the representative parliamentary democracy for what it is. 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:05.520 And it's basically the elite rule with a very weak, very bleak stamp 00:31:05.520 --> 00:31:08.520 every four years by those who go out 00:31:08.520 --> 00:31:11.040 and vote in the elections. 00:31:11.040 --> 00:31:15.353 And, you know, election turnout 00:31:15.486 --> 00:31:17.840 is a particular topic that we shouldn't go into. 00:31:18.120 --> 00:31:21.000 So SBOR in Brezy is the idea that, 00:31:21.106 --> 00:31:25.800 let us try and inspire, revive our resistance. 00:31:25.800 --> 00:31:28.800 Let us not just accept what is being served to us. 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:33.366 And I think there is, there is some... 00:31:34.206 --> 00:31:36.039 there is the energy! 00:31:36.139 --> 00:31:39.920 People have been fighting for rivers, for a decade 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:45.473 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and obviously the coal miners protests. 00:31:45.560 --> 00:31:51.080 So, it's there, it's just that when the institutional arrangement 00:31:51.139 --> 00:31:54.419 blocks it out, it's difficult to see how you pursue it any further 00:31:54.520 --> 00:31:58.200 without falling into the trap of the typical kind of 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:03.040 NGO-style, legislation amendments, or 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:09.480 policy making or policy briefings to influence the policy makers. 00:32:09.613 --> 00:32:13.080 So let's explore a bit, an alternative way. 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.680 If we sit down together and send a very clear message 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:20.456 and if we are united, I think that is also valuable. 00:32:20.560 --> 00:32:24.456 And also in terms of people understanding what self-organization can do. 00:32:27.273 --> 00:32:32.005 The 2014 uprising in Bosnia and Herzegovina 00:32:32.360 --> 00:32:34.920 This was 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:39.840 not long after it kind of withered away 00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:44.040 I said that my impression was that it was not heralding, 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.160 the what was to come like the 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:52.200 uprising or the rebellion or the spirit of struggle, 00:32:52.773 --> 00:32:58.146 but it was more like marking the moment when the regime was consolidated. 00:32:58.320 --> 00:33:02.280 It was almost like the last kick of the old energy. 00:33:02.760 --> 00:33:06.720 So which is, which blocks you for several years, 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:08.520 you know, people will say, like: 00:33:08.520 --> 00:33:12.640 "Wow, we were on the streets in 2014 and it didn't change anything", 00:33:13.320 --> 00:33:17.300 but I think it's also, something remains, lessons learned 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.040 remain, we still, 00:33:20.100 --> 00:33:23.820 you know, quite a few of us from those years are still around, 00:33:23.879 --> 00:33:27.386 trying to revive direct democratic mechanisms, 00:33:27.427 --> 00:33:29.096 self-organizing mechanisms. 00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:31.960 And we are finding that people are more and more, 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:34.960 more open, perhaps now than they were back then. 00:33:35.280 --> 00:33:40.120 Also the example of Serbia now it really is inspiring, that people 00:33:40.120 --> 00:33:44.120 are trying to kind of self-organize, or at least students are self organizing. 00:33:45.320 --> 00:33:49.480 And the lessons are... 00:33:50.120 --> 00:33:52.400 it's about the uniting of struggles. 00:33:52.780 --> 00:33:57.080 There was a lot of, back in those... I don't think we actually understood 00:33:57.080 --> 00:33:58.200 how much we needed that: 00:33:59.226 --> 00:34:01.640 here was a lot of mistrust and distrust 00:34:02.280 --> 00:34:07.320 and also the lack of organizing knowledge, 00:34:08.520 --> 00:34:10.840 because some of the older ones. 00:34:10.953 --> 00:34:13.840 And I would count myself into that group. 00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:16.360 We kind of thought that it was there. 00:34:16.446 --> 00:34:21.046 What we learned back in socialism, like how you organize. 00:34:21.680 --> 00:34:24.680 We assumed. We did not know. 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:26.440 It wasn't there. 00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:29.440 There was such damage inflicted 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:33.246 upon our society through the years of war and transition, 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:37.906 through the sort of democratization that pushed us into the 00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:40.206 "It's either NGO or nothing." 00:34:40.273 --> 00:34:42.406 "It's either the elections or nothing." 00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.200 That we counted as something that was not really there. 00:34:48.680 --> 00:34:51.680 Or, it was there but very fragmented and very weak. 00:34:51.720 --> 00:34:54.800 And I think, we've been learning since then 00:34:54.879 --> 00:34:57.900 and people say, oh, it's pointless, but it's not pointless. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.120 There were rivers saved. 00:34:59.213 --> 00:35:03.280 And there were people who learned a lot through that. 00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.600 We saved a water supply infrastructure company 00:35:08.640 --> 00:35:11.640 in Sarajevo from, I think, imminent, 00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:15.453 threat of privatization through self-organizing. 00:35:15.513 --> 00:35:17.800 There were schools saved in Sarajevo from closure. 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:20.560 There was a city hospital saved in Sarajevo from closure. 00:35:20.560 --> 00:35:24.520 I'm speaking about Sarajevo, not because I think it's the prime example. 00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:28.573 I think there are important things happening in Banja Luka, in Tuzla, 00:35:29.040 --> 00:35:32.833 in many smaller communities like Jablanica 00:35:34.813 --> 00:35:37.320 but that's my base. 00:35:37.432 --> 00:35:41.105 So I want to talk about the struggles that I know best. - So a lot was saved 00:35:41.160 --> 00:35:45.051 through self-organizing, even if at a much smaller scale. 00:35:45.200 --> 00:35:47.560 And we were learning through these struggles. 00:35:47.560 --> 00:35:51.760 And I think the moment has now come to use our knowledge, 00:35:52.680 --> 00:35:55.680 to start with something bigger. 00:35:55.720 --> 00:35:58.920 And I think, when people say that was a failure, 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:05.186 I think we have a very naive vision 00:36:05.259 --> 00:36:07.440 of what political struggle looks like. 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.280 And I think the time has come 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.640 to start also learning one important lesson, 00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:14.600 which we missed, 00:36:14.600 --> 00:36:17.600 - and that kind of reflected on 2014: 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:20.040 There are no instant victories. 00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:23.280 There are no instant defeats either, but there are no instant victories. 00:36:23.560 --> 00:36:27.760 And many of us, will work and work for another decade, 00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:31.560 perhaps without seeing the fruits of our labor, of our political labor. 00:36:31.640 --> 00:36:37.320 And I think we need to learn the lesson that there is joy in a good fight, 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:41.023 and there is freedom in the struggle and resistance. 00:36:41.120 --> 00:36:42.480 You know, not freedom. 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.840 as something that you achieve and the emancipation that you achieve. 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:48.520 And then you can sort of: "Yeah, that's it, we're there." 00:36:48.593 --> 00:36:52.320 No, we have to learn to love and embrace this struggle, 00:36:52.406 --> 00:36:55.726 because that's when we are free, when we are together in this struggle. 00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:59.840 It sounds, you know, it may sound kind of empty, 00:36:59.913 --> 00:37:04.036 but this is what I'm trying to, to get the younger generation to understand. 00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:08.760 You will never, ever in the world as it is arranged and organized 00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.960 feel more free than when you are 00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:15.183 resisting the system and struggling. 00:37:15.299 --> 00:37:17.859 Don't wait for some moment of freedom to come. 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:19.200 It's there. 00:37:19.303 --> 00:37:20.800 It's there when you resist. 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:25.633 I think we kind of undermined also that factor. 00:37:26.033 --> 00:37:28.599 Thinking about the technicalities of struggle 00:37:28.680 --> 00:37:31.599 or thinking about tactics or strategies, 00:37:31.752 --> 00:37:35.971 we failed to understand 00:37:36.052 --> 00:37:38.932 that this is also that needs to be communicated. 00:37:39.005 --> 00:37:40.698 that we need to learn, 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:44.100 because the instant victory fixation, 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:49.600 means that our political reason has been captured by capitalism. 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.160 Like you go, you buy, you have it. 00:37:52.606 --> 00:37:54.760 No, this is political struggle. 00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:59.120 You go and you struggle and you fight and you work and you go back 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.206 and you struggle and you fight and you work and move all over again.